Monday, April 27, 2009

Illusion Warped: Part 2

Now for the rest of the story.

OK, so Bret set the stage for my question so here it goes.

Aside from the debate on how much we should discuss about witchcraft. I think we all agree that a Christian should have no part of witchcraft. As it says in Revelations.

Revelation 21:8 (King James Version)

8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The question is why don't most Christians mind that witchcraft and magic are part of the books, movies, etc. that they enjoy? For example two popular series that Christians tend to approve of LOTR, and Narnia both have magic and wizards as a main part of the story. I can't call myself a wizard and be a Christian, but as I Christian, I can read fictional stories about wizards? Can I justify it because it is a "good wizard"? Just typing" good wizard" seems like a oxymoron.

So my question is now out there, and I look forward to reading the opinions. This is a question that I haven't figured out for myself yet, but a nagging question that been in my head.

Also, unlike my esteemed partner in crime. I'm not out to offend anyone here. So if it happens I guess I'm sorry.


Amber said...

I was just asking that to a person a little while ago.
But to answer it myself...
Just because you read it, does not make you one, or make you bad.
I think that it is on the person's conscience what they watch or what they read. And i don't think that i should judge them if they do, or if they judge me for watching or reading.

spyder-slayer™ said...

I, ah, hhmm, wow.

liberty said...

Unfortunately, many of us act on our conscience. The question is, are we right in our actions?

I'm utterly astounded (and pleased) to see a Reed made speechless.
In answer to the post:
The question posed is one that I think most Christian's have just avoided instead of taking either side.
I heard for a long, long time about how stupendously wonderful the Narnias and LOTRs are, but then after watching them myself, I was left with, "stupidity!" I reckon it turns on my being such a down to earth, philosophical realist. Although I didn't consider it being "wrong", to me it was just kind of pointless.
Disregarding all the above, your question puts one between the gun and the stone wall.
I reckon it's something I'll have to ponder, study, and pray about.
I'm glad you asked the question though, it's something everybody's got to face in it's real and literal terms.

jimmy said...

A very wise man once said that by taking one verse or one small portion of the Holy Scriptures, with utter disregard for its context or intended meaning, one may prove any desired point imaginable. Now, he was very wise, because what he said is true.
God's word isn't intended to confuse believers, so when it was written, an astounding layout was used in which almost everything stated is either reitirated, further explained in a later portion, or both. A specific example of the witchcraft denounced by the Bible is given in 1 Sam. 28, with the story of the witch at Endor who called up the spirit of Samuel for Saul. The witchcraft spoken of is a direct attempt to avoid God, and use the power of the devil to accomplish the means that should have been sought from God. The meaning of witchcraft, according to Strongs, is essentially "divination". When Saul should have sought the Lord, he instead turned to a witch to seek the knowledge he should have obtained from God, in the spirit of Samuel.
Now, for the point I'm making:
LOTR and Narnia (the mentioned stories)create an alternate reality (come on, it's a fantasy story), in which "God" doesn't really exist as the Biblical God; he's represented in some other form, and the friendly 'wizards' are on his side, making them more like prophets, in comparison. Now, for the evil wizards in said stories, they're treated as villains, just like the Bible treats them. So hey, what's the problem?

spyder-slayer™ said...

That hurt, but I will consider the source.


(for the record, it was not because I did not have an answer)

Amber said...

Liberty- I know i act on my conscience a lot... but that does not mean i do not listen to reason.
My Conscience has saved me from a lot of stuff in these past years. And i am hoping that it saves others in some ways... (no i am not going to say what)
And how do you know that you are right in any of your doctrine, or any of your Beliefs??

Bret- If you have an answer, why not say it?? I seriously doubt if anyone would be offended by it.

Rhonda said...

MB, that is totally the pot calling the kettle black. You telling Bret if he has something to say to say it!

spyder-slayer™ said...

Are you sure YOU wouldn't be seriously offended if I ate your "Conscience" "Reason" "Beliefs" way of thinking alive?

Amber said...

Go right ahead. I know my way of thinking. (i know... i know...)
I have something else to say on the matter too. but i am going to have to find it later...

Amber said...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
- Edmund Burke

Amber said...

I, personally, cannot stand by and allow evil to continue simply because I would not choose to partake in it myself. To me, it is like saying that i would willingly allow someone I know to kill anyone he/she chooses, just as long as he/she leaves the people I love alone.
...But the entire matter is not in my hands, nor can I help it any. It is in God's hands, and God alone.
I do not believe that I should put my mind in such books or movies, but I have seen them and read them. No, I will not read them again. Will I watch them again?? Maybe. It totally depends on the situation.
I don't judge who does watch them or read them constantly, because several of my family members do, as do some of my friends. I would much rather be doing something outside, or reading about History.

And i am thinking that the conscience that i am speaking of, is different from what everyone else is thinking it is.

Amber said...

*is waiting to be torn apart....

liberty said...

I done it again!For the fiftyeth time, "I knew there was a reason I stayed off this blog."

Amber, I entirely did not mean to tear you apart in any way. I was simply throwing something out there that's been on my thoughts lately.
I only believe that what I believe is right.

spyder-slayer™ said...

Fine then, your "Conscience" "Reason" "Beliefs", could you show me how or why they matter Biblically?

Amber said...

Liberty- I didn't even notice that you were tearing me apart... :)

SS- Alrighty then.
Some of this is copy-pasted, but i couldn't have said it better myself.
(yes Kitty... I had lots of help with the spelling.)

Part 1 of who knows how many...

The Bible teaches that God has placed basic principles of His Law in every person's conscience (Romans 2:14,15). This operates whether or not the person ever reads the Bible or even has been told anything about God.

A. The Weak Conscience

This conscience is essentially an uninstructed conscience -- lacking in a knowledge of the Bible to the point where it is overly sensitive and calls some activities "sins" which are not wrong according to the teachings of the Bible (I Corinthians 8:1-13).

In the situation discussed in I Corinthians 8:1-13, the Apostle Paul was answering the question of whether or not a true Christian should eat meat that had first been offered to idols and then sold in the market place.

On the one hand, some Christians were saying, "What difference does it make? Idols are only pieces of wood and stone!" (I Corinthians 8:4-6).

While others had consciences that were bothered by eating the meat. THESE WERE THE PEOPLE WITH THE WEAK CONSCIENCES (I Corinthians 8:7). Because they were bothered by something that God's Word had not forbidden in either principle or commandment, they had "weak consciences."

Those Christians with weak consciences today oftentimes label certain activities as wrong when the Bible does not condemn them at all. This causes them to pull back further and further from those very people God wishes them to get close to -- showing the world His love. Whenever the Church's culture rather than God's Word shapes our behavior, we will dilute the impact we can have on those around us.

An increased knowledge of the Bible has the power to strengthen a weak conscience (I Corinthians 8:7) so that the individual can begin seeing activities in the light of the Bible's teachings rather than the light of some man-made standard or cultural taboo.

However, as a point of warning, a person with a weak conscience can defile his conscience much easier than someone else, since to the person with a weak conscience there are more activities that their conscience will label as "wrong." Therefore, others with stronger consciences need to walk carefully so as not to encourage the person with the weak conscience to go against his conscience (I Corinthians 8:9-12, pg. 968) before their conscience has been strengthened through increased knowledge of the Bible. Anytime we go against our conscience, the Bible says that our conscience has been "defiled."

Nevertheless, the person with the weak conscience also must guard against judging others for doing things that his conscience has told him is wrong.

Of course in this discussion, we are not talking about those activities that Bible has clearly indicated as being wrong (i.e. lying murder, sexual impurity, etc.) We are speaking of those gray areas in which there is no clear teaching in either commandment or principle in the Bible.

As you can see, God will sometimes work in different people's consciences in different ways concerning gray areas of activities. Depending upon the person's background and inherent weaknesses, an individual's conscience might even bother them about attending a baseball game. Possibly this person has found baseball a consuming passion so strong that its focus can even replace God's rightful #1 place in his/her life. In this case, that person then should NOT go to a game nor should they condemn another Christian whose conscience does not bother them when they go to a baseball game.

And in even some situations the person with the freedom to go to a game will not go to a baseball game if going to that game would cause the other weaker conscience Christian to go against his or her own conscience.

Anonymous said...

Why can one not call himself a Christian if he is a wizard?

Do you believe that supernatural power has to come from an evil source?

I'm with Jimmy on this one. There is a difference in the LOTR/Narnia wizardry and witchcraft condemned in the Bible.

BTW.. In my humble opinion... LOTR movies are very worth watching whereas the Narnia movies don't do the books justice.

spyder-slayer™ said...

Well the Bible says not to be a wizard!

Leviticus 19:31
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Amber said...

TT- Name any one of us that are seeking after Wizards. Name any one of us that want to act like one.

Anonymous said...


Sarah said...

WOW!!!long conversation.

Megs said...

LOTR is the age old picture of the battle between good and evil. and good ALWAYS triumphs over evil. btw, in case anybodys confused, those were not real wizards; they were just actors. those were not real miracles; those were just camera tricks. and just a side note, the bigger fairy tale, in this discussion, is the one stated by Dave, where he claimed to know what MOST CHRISTIANS BELIEVE regarding LOTR/ thats hard to comprehend. the question is, who are MOST christians? all his friends? or did he conduct a national poll???????? just wondered.